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Class clown
Reply with quote  #51 
I would love to see a clown show in the binding. 

This stunt brought to you by  and

"No NO Crusty - that is a f&*&& jump ramp..... Crusty don't take the ramp"

<Crowd gasps>
<crusty cuts for the ramp, a double too>

to be cont'd 

Reply with quote  #52 
Originally Posted by Brent
Could also post video here to further this discussion ?

Reply with quote  #53 
Jumper on OB4 System catches an edge on landing and binding releases

The Clown
Reply with quote  #54 

Thanks for posting the video's . Is it possible for you to post a video of the double system being tested on a dock ,so we can see how both boots release together?
The Clown
Reply with quote  #55 
The Clown
Reply with quote  #56 
Dave Robbins
Reply with quote  #57 
I have been fixing my ARC system for years.  Best system for toes, in my opinion.
Since knee surgery (snow ski accident) and ankle in-op, I rebuilt the boot with 50% thicker and a durometer stiffer material.

I wonder if parts are interchangeable with "old blue" (my new home-made Frankenstein boot is black though)

Rebirth of ARC ?

Reply with quote  #58 
Dave, the OB4 boot plates will fit the ARC release.
Reply with quote  #59 
Howdy boys:  1st time here on skifly, didn't know it existed.  Gave up on BOS awhile back, got tired of arguing with "mr. can't be wrong"

Got lots of cool stuff to show you guys.

First, you all are right, my gatormod for Velcro looked like, as you said, a "patented automatic hat tipper".

I got it right on my third try, now  you can use any binding (wileys, tfactors, stradas, powershells) with gatormod3.1 on a G10 plate, with almost no weight or cost penalty.

Far as I know, my mod is the only way to avoid an injury due to a perfect, crushing, OTF.  I ripped my Achilles and other stuff 3 years ago, and it took two surgeries to make it kind of work.  Won't ever be right.  So that is what drove my efforts.  My belief, and data I've gathered on BOS confirms this, is that any binding that releases due to force will not protect you in a crushing OTF. Not reflex, fogman, stealth, wiley.  None.  No instances yet on OB4, but, not enough users yet to say.  Theory says will still be an issue. 

Gatormod releases due to degree of ankle bend.

A perfect crushing OTF only happens rarely in our careers, and unfortunately is more common the older and weaker we get.  So, like me, you can ski forty years in all types of bindings and never get hurt, even though the bindings you are using won't protect you.  The one time, though, is devastating.

v3.1 uses a shin protector (like a soccer shin guard) to transfer the angle measurement to the front of the front binding.  If somebody can tell me how to transfer the damn picture from my cell phone to a post here i'll post the patent drawing and explanation for you all to see.  I admit I'm a computer moron.

Other gizmos are the final version of the gatorgard handle guard, and the gatortail fin, which is being tested now by one of the ski manufacturers.  And, hopefully by this spring, we'll (a group of BOS intelligentsia working via emails=crowd source?)  have our first automatic mapping system to map skier speed, positon, acceleration real time on your ipad.

Gator. (Craig Gates)
Steve B.
Reply with quote  #60 
Interesting ideas gator. Somehow tie that front release mechanically to the rear, so that no way you get a 1 foot in, 1 foot out issue. Also, include some kind of safety mechanism such that if the rear foot comes out, so does the front. Maybe like how a snow ski brake is applied when the boot pops out.

I've had a couple of falls where the back stayed in, and the front came out. That is not cool at all. I never, ever, want that to happen again.

Steve B.
Reply with quote  #61 
Both feet in or both feet out is central to my design. This eliminates risks in twisters. The angle of the front ankle flex drives the release of the G10 plate that both boots are mounted to.
Reply with quote  #62 
The whole G10 thing is very klugey imo. Not withstanding, 3M poly hooks are NOT designed for marine mechanical connection of this sort (engineers would think you are bonkers!). Maybe if you were hanging drapes in a yacht.

The G10 plate system It doesn't have a reliable toe connect, so from a safety standpoint, nixed right there. You could fix that but, moving back  you need to have relief (as in force relief) at the heels, both heels. The rear heel sees the flexion first followed by weight transfer to the front. OK enough of that.
Triggering release from leg angle is a neat idea though. Release triggered by upward force applied to a mechanical gate with some margin (ie greater than the Silvretta release!!) to really simulate what has worked all along and that is a simple, low cut, properly fitted old school rubber boot.   

Reply with quote  #63 
There is no upward force at the front heel in a perfect crushing OTF. Your hips are smashed down over your front heel by g force. I sprained my front ankle a number of times in rubber, and data shows others have blown Achilles in rubber.

Agree Velcro is crude. But, with gatormoded it doesn't have to be precise. Ankle angle levers the Velcro apart at the rear of the plate. And, in v3.1, velcro only attaches the back half of the plate. Front half held on by "explosive" screws into standard inserts. Ankle angle "blows" those screws. I agree too many inadvertent releases at front of Velcro plate.
craig gates
Reply with quote  #64 
just posted didn't show up.  Testing 123
craig gates
Reply with quote  #65 
binding safety ranking: in my opinion.

1)gatormodded Velcro plate (shin guard, telescoping poles, pics on BOS)
3)Loose bungy boots (FM, Radar, Connelly talon, etc)
4)Wiley rubber
6)Stiff pin plate (fogmans, Stealth, EXO)
7)Tight bungy boots
8)Lace up "rubber" (stiff polymer)
9)Hard shells on Velcro plate.

This list is Safety only.  Cost, complexity, performance, maintenance are different lists.

How valid is my opinion? 

I tore my Achilles and peroneal tendon 4 years ago.  I've been skiing 35 years.  I am now running mid 38s.  I've been much deeper before my injury.  I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering, I run a $500 million engineering and manufacturing company, I have a number of patents, I spent the last 4 years interviewing injured skiers and cataloguing their circumstances, I built over 20 prototypes, I have skied in and tested everything on the list except OB4.

I have a year now in my new gatormoded Velcro plate (GM3.0).  I realize its too weird in appearance for people.  But, man, it works awesome.  I'm trying to get Goode interested in a commercial version, but, failing that I'll just keep making 3.0s and giving them away to people who got hurt.

Reply with quote  #66 
Hi Craig
Could I have your email address, I would like to talk with you about your system.


craig gates
Reply with quote  #67 
sure. send me yours and I'll email you.
craig gates
Reply with quote  #68 
Some data for you guys still using Velcro:

  I have been seeing some weird stuff as I build and calibrate the latest version of gatormod for injured skiers out here in Spokane. ( You'd be surprised how many skiers get badly injured ankles in just a small metro area).

It seemed to me that  old duallok left on the guys plates who sent them to me for mods had a lot less force to release than the virgin stuff.  I asked Dave Goode at the nationals, and he told me not to worry, 3M guarantees it for a 1000 operations.

I checked.  The 3M spec guarantees it to retain 50% of its force for a 1000 operations.  50% is a big difference.  Certainly enough to cause a prerelease if your DL is old, or certainly enough to hurt you if you are putting the same amount of virgin DL on that you have iterated to by adding DL over time to stop the pre-releases.

So, I rigged up a test using a digital force gage and virgin duallok.  I found what I suspected to be true.

The Duallok retains almost all its virgin force for 5 releases.  Then, between 5 and 10 releases it loses almost 40% of its release force.  Between 11 and 50 releases it stays virtually the same- 40% of virgin.  After 50 releases I don't know because I got too bored and quit.  I think it is safe to assume that it asymptotes to 50% while you get up to 1000 releases, as promised by 3M.

What does this mean for you guys that are using DL as a calibrated release force (ie on a Goode plate with powershells)? 

It means this:  If you have arrived at a good amount of DL over time by adding some here and there (ie just enough to stop prereleases) , you are at risk if you, at some point, replace the whole ski and plate DL.  You need to snap and peel the new setup a good ten times to "break it in".

It also means that if your current setup is virgin and has not pre-released, you need to be vigilant as your number of releases gets past 5.  You may start to see some pre-releases at the most inopportune times.

It also means using DL as a calibrated release method is a shaky proposition.

Reply with quote  #69 
Just curious if you are an engineer?

Dual lock is molded up from polypropylene plastic (PP) - which is one of those bottom-end plastics. Jerry & trash cans, kids toys that sort of thing are made from PP. It's pretty tough for impact but...

PP will break down as it flexes
PP is not very stable over temperature- gets rigid when cold, soft when hot. 

So there are two variables right there that impact the Powershell application.  It all certainly works better in heat because you can lather on the dual lock and still have a friendly release from the ski.  

3M products have very good performing adhesives, but most of their stuff cost $$. 

I have a buddy that is a Goode fan. Perfect crash test dummy for me because I can see all the faults play out on a regular basis.  Cartwheeling from pre-release, damage from stick & hammering, to now essentially a non-release system that warps up under extreme pressure during certain types of falls.

Luckily no injuries, until the rope handle got caught in the Powervest strap and took his shoulder out.  That thing is ... don't get me started!

Dave himself got bit by the temperature issue. 

I see a future without dual lock for water-skiing, might be 10 years from now,.


craig gates
Reply with quote  #70 
Yes, I am an engineer. DL works for me and my fellow gatormod users, because in the gatormod version I have the whole plate taped up with the 500 pitch DL. Without the gatormod, it would never come off.

In a fall that requires a release the gatormod pries it off. So, in the gatormod case you could say I have enough DL on the plate to cover the low end variance of force, while the gatormod covers the high end of the force distribution, and in both cases I have plenty of margin. As you say, there are many variables that determine release force in addition to just number of releases, so I NEED plenty of margin to make up for all that variation.

In spite of DL working for me because of gatormod, I don't like it. There are some times where I'll almost go out the front, barely save it, and then wonder if the gatormod pried the rear of the plate loose and it is now flopping around. I hate never knowing for sure if it is fully engaged. Then, getting back in the boat mid set and pounding the stuff back together is a real PITA.

After all the time I've spent developing the gatormod, and working with the guys around Spokane who've been seriously injured (my defn of that=surgery required)I can say without gatormod I WOULD NEVER SKI ON DUALLOK. No way, no how nuh uh.

To put it another way, if you want to duplicate the safety of your DL setup, go buy a fogman or stealth or Reflex or Mosley and everytime you put your ski on, roll dice. Whatever number comes up, change your release setting by that percentage and go ski. Maybe you'll get lucky and not take a bad spill when you happened to roll a 6. Maybe you'll stay lucky for years. But the odds are someday the variation is gonna get you.

Once our season ends I'll be building gatormod 4.0, which has no DL. Then next summer I'll be the test dummy again.

Reply with quote  #71 
Explosive screws is key.

Sheer pin/failure release calibrated to a biological point is what waterski needs.

I have long been of the opinion that locating domes into the boot with failure mode release most matches the biological need of feet/ankles.

They also should not be made of Gatorade lids since I don't drink that crap.
Reply with quote  #72 
For waterskiing you need progressive, organic travel, not hair triggers. So ditch the shear pin idea. 

I'll put it as simply as I can: 

The heels or ankles need to be able to come up off the ski as the tip is stuffed. Worst case is hitting a buoy, which elevates the ski, then jams the tip.  Hard OTF's, tip grabs, at the ball are bad too.

Unless there is front ankle relief available, full plate systems fail here -Stealth, Fogman, EXO : all NLA/off the market now for that predictable reason. Forces at that front ankle are huge BTW.  

Powershells have very limited front ankle relief. I've seen a guy actually break his front boot to bits taking an OTF @38, at the ball. Rusty parts, but that was a good thing!

Non-release doesn't work either. Eventually you will get cranked. Might take several years if you are good/lucky.

At the wakes it's more full body slams, and this is where the full hard plate systems do tend to release. Leads to a false sense of security. 

The Silvretta release does allow the heel to pop. Which is why a lot of skiers are using it now. However, the Silvretta is alpine and only +/- 0.15" between being in and out of the ski. That is too close of a tolerance. The stability of the system is on the "edge". So the result is bondo heel pads, the work JT is doing, new heel cups from Reflex all try to combat the stability issue.  FM has done the same with their REVO using stable heel and beefed up toe clamp system. 

Common misconception that you need a toe release. The toe is the final and most important aspect of ski control. Lose that you are done for, even through a fall. That is why for 50 years of rubber binders, the toe piece is ubiquitous. 
craig gates
Reply with quote  #73 
"Nope" I don't need you to put it simply. I already know what you typed and more. You are right, as far as you go. You are missing a couple of important concepts though.

Gatormod provides front ankle release on a two boot plate powered by front ankle angle. It is impossible to overflex your ankle in a gatormod.
Reply with quote  #74 
Craig, what do you mean by "snap and peel"?

Reply with quote  #75 
snap the plate and ski together with your trusty rubber mallet and stick, then peel it apart, repeat 9 times, this will get you to the release force threshold you should expect to see for the next 50 plus releases.

Also, since we're on the subject of trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, the worst pre-releases seem to come between hook up and pre-turn, and involve the skier getting back too far on the ski and prying the toe of the plate off the ski.  Typically lots of speed, and often means ribs into the wake.

You can get around these without increasing your chances of a ruptured Achilles by replacing the front 6 inches of your DL with 500 pitch.  This doesn't increase the force to release in an OTF, but does significantly increase the resistance to releasing from the toe when you are inadvertently in the backseat hauling ass towards the first wake.

Note I did not say IMPROVES your chances of AVOIDING a ruptured Achilles.  It doesn't.  It just doesn't make the odds of a season ending injury any worse.

Reply with quote  #76 
But doesn't that run counter to your previous advice: 

"You need to be vigilant as your number of releases gets past 5.  You may start to see some pre-releases at the most inopportune times."

Seems like snapping and peeling would get you past those five times ...
Reply with quote  #77 

No, it doesn't.  But, I can see how you could reach that as your, a clarification:

You need to pick one of two operating modes if you're going to try to optimize your release "setting" on DL.

MODE 1 is to always have fresh DL on your setup.  Less than 5 releases.  If you run in this mode, you can count on a release force close to the virgin release force.  But, once you pass 5 releases you'll need to replace the DL, or you'll see a significant reduction in retention.  If you don't fall much and hardly ever release this mode is as good as any.  If you fall and release a lot, its expensive and a PITA.

MODE 2 is to always have "broken in" DL on your setup. More than 10 releases. Snap and peel before you use. If you run in this mode, you can count on the release force, which will be about 40% of the virgin release force, remaining consistent for 50 or more releases.  This mode is best if you release a fair amount.

If you assume that you want a particular force to release, (say 180 lbs at the heel), in MODE 2 you'll need 40% MORE surface area of DL than you will need in MODE 1.  But if you put 40% more on, and don't snap and peel, you're first 5 releases are at odds of being too late to save you.

Make sense?

I'm in my post tournament phase of my season, which means a lot of technique experimentation, which means a lot of falls, which means I can go past 5 releases in a week.  Replacing DL every week is expensive and a real PITA.  So mode 2-broken in DL- is where I choose to operate.  Now that I understand the release vs retention curve in combo with gatormod I'm comfortable with MODE 2. 

Before I understood it, I was afraid even with 500 pitch slathered everywhere I was straying into prerelease zone as I got 15 releases and more on a set of DL. 

I called GOODE when I first got suspicious on the release vs force curve.  All they would say is "replace as you feel comfortable".  Which is a bullshit response.  But, now, as I attempt to explain this its clear a bullshit response is a lot easier to explain than the informed response.  
Reply with quote  #78 
Got it, thanks. 

Opinion piece
Reply with quote  #79 
Shear element is at a set peak force plane by plane. Coronal torsion tolerance is ideally low. Frontal connectivity high. Sagittal release.... Moderate.

Coronal crash - spiral Fx. Femur risk. Rtp>dual boot single plate.

Frontal plane... Lo/hi side. Never seen this as a ski injury. Key energy transfer foot to ski. Mostly where folks discuss shimming/alignment

Sagittal. Achilles, wrecked ankles. OTF crash. Crushing falls.

How do you set independent parameters for these release points in different force tolerance with various retention and protect in each plane?

Gator - sagittal crush reduction. Dual boot protects torsion. Needs rear shell.

MM sagittal and coronal release controlled by same tension profile of release pin to receiver can change force profile.

Alternative - toe plate release up at peak load. Heal releases up at peak load. Torsional force blows a separate release boot off plate. Progression provided by some mismate between foot and shell. Elasticity in boot system.

Spiral Fx. Been there in rubber. Ankle crush ball stab done.

Maybe rubber boot with torsion plate beneath is ideal match up for rtp.
Reply with quote  #80 
>Shear element is at a set peak force plane by plane. Coronal torsion tolerance is ideally >low. Frontal connectivity high. Sagittal release.... Moderate.....blah blah blah blah blah
>Maybe rubber boot with torsion plate beneath is ideal match up for rtp.

It's the old multi-angle, how many times thou shalt fail, alpine release binding era of the 60's, 70's, 80's. The more degrees of release you add, the more chance of pre-release. You need to release in some primary directions well, and the rest.... Actually the alpine guys have started to figure it out finally, I'm impressed.  Same for cycling pedals, much better in recent years.

The basic fundamental of torn up ankles, breaks, knee pops,etc is a toe load, ankle compression and worse with a twist. "Spiral fx".

So how about I give you the following:

1. Put your ankle is a protective boot with the world's best liner technology
2. Release from the ski as easy as a Cypress Garden's combo binding
3. Will never pre-release because it uses a toe piece and stable heel clamp

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