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Future of Tricks
Reply with quote  #1 
This is a serious question , I personally think trick skiing is globally held back by the very existence of toe tricking ... get rid of it and it should generate more interest ... 

Reply with quote  #2 
Go wakeboarding and you can have a few falls as well
Reply with quote  #3 
Opinions are like arseh01es....everybody's got one.
Reply with quote  #4 
exactly ...look where wakeboarding is today vs tricking in participation ...
Reply with quote  #5 
I'm enjoying tricking for my 5th decade, now in Men 6. Do they have M6 wakeboard? Oh yah, NO. Wakeboarders are crippled with injuries by the time they're M3 age. Leave toes alone. It's simple, if you don't want to do toes, don't do them. I've never been dragged once in 50 years of toes.
Reply with quote  #6 
Yes it is.  Can deny it and blast those that say it is all people want, but once a young person realizes how dumb it is, they move on to wakeboarding or just quit.  Make them two separate events and then maybe do a combined for the traditional trickers.  My kids will not do toes.
toe turner
Reply with quote  #7 
yep, you need to recognize that toes are not mandatory--they are simply tricks with respective point values.  top female pros are generally able to score between 4100 and 4500 on toe pass, compared to over 6000 in some cases on hand pass.  For top men, the toe pass is typically between 4200 and 5300; hands are more than 7000 for the best.  BUT, toes is a creative, challenging, difficult, and interesting part of the trick event.  It is exciting to watch too.
Reply with quote  #8 
That is your opinion, and I respect that.  I do not agree, I feel toes look like a bunch of spasm movements going on the water most of the time, with arms flailing around, and yes, there are people that make it look great, most are females.  I respect the difficulty, and that someone would want to do them.  But would you not agree that there is a sense that toes are more or less required/expected of juniors to perform as "progression" in the sport?  I think it also breaks down to one simple thing, people bash flips because they can't do them, and say they are overvalued, but the same could be said for toes.  I know it will never happen, but they should be split apart as separate events.  Do that, and then see how many people are participating in the toes event in 3-5 years.  That will show you the interest and desire to do toes, and what may have been hindering the sport from remaining attractive and growing in recent past.  I think people that say just go wakeboard need to realize how many people really do exactly that, and that's not good for 3 event.  Are people not getting nervous about Erika Lang?
retired toe tricker
Reply with quote  #9 
you are right toes are not mandatory by rule but they are as an induced fact , once you've stood up a 7000 hand pass , the remaining hand tricks available to produce another 5000+ hand pass are just not there or way too risky ...

toes are easy , overvalued and dangerous ...

I recently stopped competing and my fisrt action was to sell my toe hold ski ... I have no desire to ever to toes again ....I have done them for 30 years because I HAD to ... every single tile it was like going to the dentist ...
Reply with quote  #10 
So if we dump toes don't we end up where "retired toe tricker" says in the 1st paragraph. Besides if I loose my 2400 toe points I won't be there judging, driving, calculating, dock starting etc. Mountian biking is fun too!
EB real
Reply with quote  #11 

Something else, what toe tricking has turned into.  Back in the back-back, we had
just TB, TF, maybe TWB, TWF, and TS.  Al Tyll changed that by adding the TWO as a
risky starter trick in his 2nd pass.  Still, he only did a few toes, and then went on to
a bunch of 1-ski tricks.  After a first run that was mostly 2-ski tricks, and also ramp
tricks, back when they were allowed.

I can recall Ricky McCormick at a Nationals at Myers Lake in Ohio doing some toes
near the end of one pass by quickly throwing the toe strap on.

Initially, it was EZ to just self-release by pointing your toe.  Then, more grabby toe
straps came along where you really needed a release person.  Like Gil's Sure Grip.

Reverse toes led to a whole bunch of other tricks and and eventually a full toe run.
And, some wrecked knees and broken femurs.

Until you now get into the high-level toe trickers, I gotta agree that it looks like a whole
lot of unwinding and winding up.  Perhaps with some hesitations.  The toe steps are
impressive, of course, especially the 540's.

My 2 cents here.  I don't see any EZ solutions, the way the event is structured and
the tricks are valued now.  I suppose you could drop restrictions on flips, but that
might just turn the event into a mirror of wakeboarding.
Reply with quote  #12 
Why is that bad?  You're limiting flips, to force tricks over to toes, to not be similar to a more successful discipline....
Reply with quote  #13 
Good ol' reverse toes for Ricky.......

Forest Fisher
Reply with quote  #14 
See on the flip side... if you got rid of toe trick I'd quit skiing... TWLs are the most enjoyable part of my ski ride. 

As for dangerous... my 3 biggest injuries were Flipping, jump and slalom. Never a dr/hospital injury from toe tricks...

Point values... FLIPS are over valued, at least the easier ones. Then the harder ones are relatively undervalued with only 50 pts difference in many cases. Compare BFL at 500pts to any 400 point trick and I'd argue that all the 400 point tricks are harder.

WL5F could be argued as easier, but only if you have a Toe and Line trick background (then yes much easier) but for those with little or no toe background and who has a line background any more WL5F is much harder... it also requires much more trick ski experience than BFL. 

T7F,WL5F,SLO,SLBB,W7B,TLWO,TWLBB,TW5B all between 400-500 points and all harder or at least require much more "trick ski" skill and experience than required to learn BFL.

In fact there are a lot of 300 point tricks that could be argued as harder than FLIPs if you look at M1 and M2 at nationals... there are a number of skiers who do multiple flips but can hardly do a W5 and certainly not 3 W5s.

Yes you are right, flips have always been hard for me and I grew up in the era of toe tricks and have a strong toe trick and line back ground but that said, I use to do 7 different FLIPS with fairly high consistancy (although never more than 4 in a run).

So back to the original question... should we get rid of toes... NO.

If you want to continue to see trick skiing grow then we should reassign point and eliminate the flip limit. If the points are assigned correctly then you will see flippers flip and spinners spin and have variation in runs.

Have a Gold Medal Day!
Reply with quote  #15 
No one is forced to do toes so they're are NOT "olding back" tricks. Boat manufacturers are killing tricks by building boats that trick like shi*.
Kevin Jack
Reply with quote  #16 
I agree with Forest. We don't need to get rid of toes, keep USAWS and IWSF the way it is, and if someone chooses not to do toes they can.  Jodi Seal told me that Steven can do 8,000 points with two hand passes.  Having personally skied with Steve, I believe it!  That is a skier's choice, and I can pretty much guarantee that neither the USAWS or IWSF will put a ban on toe tricks.  It just won't happen.  However, most skiers would agree that toes aren't as much of a spectator appeal as flips are, at least not to most people who aren't experts. I would much rather watch Ace do TWL5B and hop into the reverse than see anybody do BFL and reverse. So many slalom and jumpers tell me that toes are stupid or gay looking, but many of them are harder than any of the basic flips.

With that being said, I think the sport could get some good exposure by having some pro events where the top professional skiers went out there and did a two run format (highest one is scored) with no flip limit.  This would let skiers showcase the splendor of flips to an audience who does not realize how much harder TWLO is than a straight backflip.  Just an idea.
Reply with quote  #17 
reverse toe back ,fall intp boat and get drug out of it! no release. that made me quit.
no opinion on the subject though
Reply with quote  #18 
RTB no release? That's like trying back flip with your hands tied to the handle.
Reply with quote  #19 
Toes are opportunity.  Just like every other category of tricks.  And if they were overvalued, why are the highest score toes passes in history only in the mid 5000's? 
Plenty of "pros" love to do what they can't do... but watch toes performed by Aliaksei Zharnasek, Josh Briant, Cory and Patrice, Jaret Llewellyn, Adam Pickos, Neilly Ross, Anna Gay, Natalia Berdnikava, Pato Font, Natalia Cugliavan, Russell Gay, and the list goes on... These toe passes are interesting, powerful, fast, technical and graceful all in one. 
Flips, on the other hand, are also interesting, powerful, fast technical and graceful - higher scoring, and often easier to learn than toes.  Spins and ski lines are fascinating to watch. 
The important thing about tricks is that it takes strong proficiency in all aspects to achieve.  Toes is an integral component of that. 
Toe tricker.
Reply with quote  #20 
Toe ticks are not holding back the discipline however the 6 flip rule has a huge impact on its lack of overall enthusiasm and participation.
Reply with quote  #21 
Seems pretty simple problem to solve; don't put a limit on flips. Where would the record be if we didn't put a limit on flips?
Reply with quote  #22 
remove the limit on flips and you get 2 full runs of 10 flips each , so you'll be anywhere between 14 and 15000 points ...
Red Bull
Reply with quote  #23 
Isn't anyone doing flips with toe hold?
old tricker
Reply with quote  #24 
I don't follow wakeboard close, but aren't they limited to 5 tricks per pass? That's a flip limit of 10.
Wake boarding is dying
Reply with quote  #25 
It's time to capitalize on the decline and improve the trick sport.

Bigger wakes, better skis and for crying out loud, eliminate the NEED for toe tricks. It's boring to most skiers to do and watch. Increase the difficulty on some of them so for those who work at them get the points, but also allow for more flips and mobes

boat sports are dying
Reply with quote  #26 
Please get your facts right , wakeboarding is well and alive , just because boat is declining doesn't mean the sport is , I kindly invite you to go out to your closest cable park (that should be fairly easy with new cables poping up almost everywhere) ...

Maybe a future in Cable trick skiing ?
A Weeks
Reply with quote  #27 
I trick at my local cable, great just working on positioning/technique, as well as muscle memory
Way more skiers
Reply with quote  #28 
Originally Posted by boat sports are dying
Please get your facts right , wakeboarding is well and alive , just because boat is declining doesn't mean the sport is , I kindly invite you to go out to your closest cable park (that should be fairly easy with new cables poping up almost everywhere) ...

Maybe a future in Cable trick skiing ?

Nor where I'm at. We have a cable park attached to our boat lake. Boat lake is booked solid while the cable is often empty.

Wake boarding has plateaued, the sale of boards indicates this as well as oems move to other product lines like surfing.

A ski boat is 1/2 the price of a wake boat and you can run a lot of the same tricks on a short board. Need to allow for more expression in formal trick skiing.
Reply with quote  #29 
That is your unique situation. Wakeboarding is just fine, skiing doesn't need to hope for wakeboarding's demise, we're all in this together, supporting the same companies...
Reply with quote  #30 
I saw wakeboard Nationals on tv this weekend. Very well done. NBCSP.
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